Why the boss is busy and the team is not

It's a pleasure to be here, Mikulas. Thank you for having me. And hopefully we can have a great conversation today where one of your listeners can get something to take away that's perhaps a nugget of gold. So thank you for having me. I appreciate you being here.

Well, 2000 2013 was when Andy Hall coaching was born. That's when I left corporate for the for the final time. What was significant about PC world for me was it was it was my second big organization that I'd worked for. And I'd worked for my first company after after failing a pretty dreadful education. was interesting hearing you talking about being at university. I struggled to spell it. Never mind go there. So I fell out of school and went to work for a retailer called WH Smith in the UK. And long story short, I stayed 22 years there until someone said to me one day, Andy, I understand you want to go further in WH Smith, but we don't think you've got the potential to go any further. And after 22 years, that was a bit of a punch in the stomach, if I'm honest, but actually it was a... It really challenged me to think about what it is that I wanted after 22 years with one company. And I decided I did have the potential to go on and do more, even if that company didn't see it in me. So I put my resume together, or CV as we call it back in the UK, and PC World found me through a headhunter. And I went and had an interview with PC World. In fact, I went and had a number of interviews with PC World. And the two guys that recruited me back in those days, an operations director called Phil Burbeck and an HR director called Paul Mitford, they were incredibly ahead of their time in leadership. They selected me, I joined them and I joined them as a regional manager. But back to your original question, about halfway through that journey, they introduced to us a coaching course. And of course, I'd heard the term coaching many times back in, certainly having grown up, you know, in the world of work in the 80s and the 90s, coaching had become a relatively fashionable word. But I don't think I really understood and knew what it meant. So I went on this coaching course that me and I think seven other regional managers were asked to go on and it was over about a six month period. Paul, the HR director had created the opportunity and I guess it just fitted with my style and my approach. So, you know, when I started to learn in a little bit more detail about what was at the heart of professional coaching, as I was progressing through it, I started to apply it and I started to apply it with my team and encourage my team to apply it. And to cut a really long story short, Makoulos, at that point, as a result of taking a coaching approach, our results transformed, our particular regional results transformed so significantly that they started to stand out amongst the six or seven other regions in the company. So I discovered approach that fitted my style and applied it and it worked. and it worked properly for the remainder of my corporate career. And so much so that when I decided to leave the corporate career, I decided that was where I was going to spend my time getting even better at that skill set.

Yeah, I mean that when I when I think about it and it was some time ago now 2013 it will be 14 years next year. From what I recall, I remember I remember the struggle. I remember the struggle and how I would articulate that struggle was having been part of a corporate machine or three different corporate machines over a period of time that spanned almost 30 years. I remember what came with that corporate those corporate machines and like everything in life, I think, McCool, that's there's there's good and there's bad. You know, there are there's there's the law of polarity, as I call it, there's good and bad in everything. And what was good around, you know, the corporate infrastructure, I think was, you know, having people and colleagues around you to turn to. people that were further down the road than you were with more experience, people that had different styles and different approaches. And wherever you turned, there was help or support or advice. And for me, I developed, think, a reputation over the over the over the significant period of time of developing some good teams around me. And I had some really great people around me in my teams. Well, the minute you step out on your own, I guess it's the statement of the the bleeding obvious, if you'd excuse me. But you're all of a sudden on your own, as you mentioned earlier. the mistake that I made if you can call it a mistake, and the learning was that even though I was stepping out on my own, almost all of those relationships that I'd left behind, if I ever wanted them or needed them in support of what it is I was gonna do next, they will be there to turn to. And that was the surprise because in the main they weren't. I'd made the mistake, I think, thinking that... even though I created some very significant relationships in companies and organizations and in my team, they would be interested in what it was that I wanted to do next. And they weren't really. And the reason why I've concluded that they weren't is this sounds really selfish, I know, but I wasn't important to those people anymore. When I was leading a team of people, to my team, clearly I had influence on their careers in one way or the other. And to some degree, if you treat that seriously, you lean into that relationship with the person that you work for, When you leave, you think that they still might, and of course they don't. I think there's the saying, right, the king is dead, long live the king. So when you're no longer as important to those individuals anymore, they don't treat you as important. So I thought a lot of them would stay in contact, would be supportive, would be around if I needed them. And I don't mean to sound cruel or condescending in any way of all of those people. I now get it. I get it. Although at the time I was hurt. And I remember it actually after leaving company number one and going to company number two. I remember thinking all the people that knew me in company number one would still keep the relationship up in company number two and they didn't. And I remember thinking, why? And then it happened again from two to three and then it happened again when I left the third company and went out on my own. And I think that's fundamentally because as human beings, whether we like it or not, I think we're all looking to have our wants and our needs met. That doesn't mean to say that we're all selfish, but without thinking about it, I think we know we're always going to put ourselves first to make sure that we get our wants and our needs met. And in many cases, that's what's important to other people and other people aren't. So I think, you know, in answer to your question, it was a big learning, some big lessons there. But I think something again, like any learning experience, when you've got that experience, When you do now what it is that I do in the coaching and the leadership work that I do, I can pass and share that experience on with people that I mentor and I coach. And if I'm working with someone one-to-one that is making that transition from place A to place B, I can help create their awareness that, this might happen. In fact, it's likely to happen. So be ready for it and be aware of it. Because My type of personality is very much wanting to be around people and collaborative. Not everybody's like that, but I feel that my personality has to have people around me. And in actual fact, my wife bless her when she supported me and decided to let me go out on my own after we had that big conversation of leaving corporate behind. She said that would be the one thing that I would struggle with when I went out to be independent. And of course those people that know you really well know you the best and she was absolutely right. That was one of the biggest challenges along with the others that come with setting up a business. the people challenge was a big one.

ha ha ha. I think there's something true in not having regrets. I do think there's lots of there's something there's a lot of truth in that. And I don't have regrets. But I think if I had the awareness then that I now have today, I would have taken some risks earlier, I'm sure. Everything that I did before me has supported me and allowed me to get where it is that I've got today. Good lessons and bad lessons. That transition from WH Smith to PC World gave me so much confidence that I was missing in company number one. And really probably what I should have done when company number two came to an end, I probably should have made the transition then. So what that means is probably the third company that I joined and was part of for only three years. That's probably when I probably, if I had my time again, that's when I would do it. Because when I went from company number one to company number two and got the results that me and my team got, I realized that those transferable skills that I took with me were significant and really worthwhile that I don't think I would have ever realized in company number one until I was. I challenged myself to leave and knowing that and knowing the results that I got from company number two when when I left that that should have been the time so no regrets perhaps just a time frame that would allow me to have this conversation with you today that said I've been doing this 16 or 17 years instead of 13.

I would tell him that you need to remember Andy that you've got infinite potential. The only thing that's holding you back in achieving whatever it is that you want in life is you and your own confidence in your own ability. And I think for a long period of time, and it speaks into a little bit about you to your previous question, I was safe for 22 years in one organization. I was safe because of the training and the support it gave me. I was safe because of, really, if I think back to most of those years, I worked really hard. And if I worked really hard, that would have kept me in employment. And it did. But I don't think I really took into account the experience and the training and the development that I got that would have enabled me to step into the space that I've stepped into today sooner. think for many of us and gosh that's a broad statement is it many of us I think for a number of us we don't we have a lot more potential insiders than we actually believe ourselves so for some of us that lack of belief that lack of confidence can hold us back. And even if I think about some of the things that I've done in my business in the last three or four years, first and foremost, I can think of one about creating digital content. The Andy of six or seven years ago would have gone, I can't do that. In fact, he said, I can't do that. He said, I can't do that. He said, you know, I'm not good enough at that. You know, I'm not able to create content. Well, when push come to shove. when the writing was on the wall and it was about, there's a big opportunity here for you, Andy. You either write and record content or you don't have the big opportunities. Okay, I'll give it a go. So I think there's something all the way back about, you know, to anybody listening to this, Mikula, is, know, my mentor says, hold your image. He says, hold your image. He signs off his emails with hold your image. What he means by that is, create this positive image and belief of yourself that you can do. We touched on it, I think off camera, anything that you want to do in life. and if you believe it and you have a passion enough to believe it and you develop a, I think, you know, an appropriate plan and make that plan adaptable and changeable and you become persistent and don't give up. I think any of us can do anything that we want to do. And we certainly shouldn't ever, in my opinion, ever allow anybody, friend or foe, say, you can't do that. You can't do that. Who do you think you are? Where do you think you'll get the money? Where's the experience? No, you don't have the contacts. Many of us, think, are surrounded by people like that, that care about us, that love us dearly, and are trying to keep us safe. And by keeping us safe, they use language that sometimes, if you've got this voice inside your head and this little bit of doubt that says, I don't know whether I can or not, and it's amplified by so-called friends and relations around us, it's like that stops us and holds us back. And we've always got to ignore that voice. And we've got to make sure that we hold this really positive image of who we are and what we're capable of.

Let's see if I can try and answer that quite quickly. And as you've already established, Muculas, I don't answer things too quickly. It's one of the one of the challenges I have for your listeners and your listeners need to remember, think about this is like Andy Hall is not going to turn this into an hour's podcast. I promise you Muculas won't let me. I think from my experience of leadership and I'm generalizing here Muculas, but I have a belief that I'm right. In most cases, I'm right. And that's the

Most leaders by default have been trained to or have been mentored by a leadership model that tells people what to do. I'm the boss, I'm your leader, I've got more experience than you, I'm the guru, I'm the person that will tell you what to do. And as a result if you if you do what it is I tell you to do You'll be you'll be successful now that language didn't come out very well and I don't mean it as Draconian as I said it there, but I think at the heart of that what you've got is at that model You've got a mentoring model if I'm being polite so Mentoring is all about I have the expertise and I'm going to share this expertise with you So I'm the mentor and you're the mentee. I think there was a time, and I grew up in most of it in my leadership space, where that model worked. That model worked. And does it work? Yes, of course it works. It works to such a degree where, I think it's got a lid on it. I think it's got a ceiling to it. And even more so today with I think generations like you and yourself, Mkulas, you've got such more awareness of opportunities out in the world that you're never going to stay on any of your friends or any of your listeners, your young listeners on this podcast are not going to stay in an organization again, like I did for 22 years. I have a bigger awareness of there's a big world out there. So if they've come through university and I'm talking about this is this is a real life scenario here in terms of why I created what I did for my very first client in this program that I created called leader as a coach. A client here in Florida came to me and said I've got a problem. Can you help? So when I'd finished asking what that problem was, the client said we're recruiting brilliant young minds. Her words not mine. out of a local university, I won't say any more than that without giving the client away and within anything between 9 and 18 months they're leaving and she said and I don't really know why that is and I said I suspect I probably do and I asked her more and more questions about how her senior team led people and long story short they led by how I was describing to you earlier because they didn't know anything different they were nice people don't get me wrong This wasn't command and control and a horrible place to be, but they were leading with, I'm the expert and you're not. So if you're not, you don't have to do much thinking, Maculas. There's no thinking involved in the main in being told what to do. So the difference and the opposite to that is taking a coaching approach. What I learned all the way back in my PC world days, that coaching course, and really at the heart of coaching, and I'll simplify it here for anybody that's listening that doesn't know, but at the heart of taking a coaching approach is not me telling you what to do, but if you come to me with a particular challenge or problem, one of the things that I'm gonna do is I'm gonna start to ask questions and be curious about. that problem and I'm going to ask questions that are going to get you to think because at the heart of coaching and the heart of taking a coaching approach is a belief and it's my belief that you always know the answer or the person that works for us always knows the answer. They're just not aware of it yet and why are they not aware of it because they're not having to think into that awareness. If someone tells you what to do there's not too much thinking required it's like okay And then of course, what happens to the leader? Dependency gets created. So I'm the leader and I'm incredibly busy, but all of my people around me are not that busy. That's because I'm just telling them what to do. I'm giving all the jobs out to do. Anyway, back to my client here in Florida. The reason people were leaving, they were becoming unsatisfied with their work. Reason they were unsatisfied with their work is they'd done all this training and all this preparation to come and work in this particular organization. where they thought they could bring their skill set to life and it was being suppressed. So their employee turnover was rising and rising and rising and the money that was being wasted in recruiting people and losing them anything between 12 and 24 months later was costing this organization a fortune. So all we did was create a leader as a coach course and what that did was trained the leaders not to be professional coaches like I am but train the coaches to use a coaching model and train the leaders into your preference or your default should be to ask and listen rather than to tell. And if you do that, you open up the thinking inside people. They feel more trusted, they feel more engaged, they feel more part of the organization. They start to learn. But if they go to Macuuless and say, Macuuless, What should I do? It's like, hang on a minute. I know what Macaulay is going to say. He's going to say, what do you think? When you've done this before, how was the result? What have you tried previously that worked? What stops you trying that again? What else could you do? When will you do that by? And how will I know it's been done? So if I start to think, hang on a minute. And the first time I go and ask Andy, Andy says to me all the time, what do I think? So actually, why don't I think? because I probably know the answer. Now is a coaching approach the approach to take all of the time? Not necessarily because there's a time like when the building's on fire and there's an emergency it's get out follow me right this is the nearest fire exit come with me it's not a time to say well which which fire exit you think we should use and what's the best one and you know and which and have you you tried that for no no no building's on fire, get out. Sometimes there's a crisis in an organization or a crisis in your team and it requires mentorship and it requires telling. But I have this ultimate belief and I believe that I've proved it, that the coaching is the answer to huge employee turnover problems. And I think most organizations and most companies make the mistake when they see a flashing red light or a flashing amber light on their balance scorecard that says, our employee turnover is going up to 30 % and 40 % and 50%. I think they often turn to HR and they say to HR fix it. Change the terms and conditions. Look to see if we can pay more money. I think today most people don't leave an organization because of lack of money or the fact that there wasn't a ping pong table. I think they leave because of who they're working for and the reason they leave because of who they're working for. is not necessarily because they're not a nice woman or man. They're just frustrated with how they're being led and they're not having to think when they come to work. And lots of us, I think, want to contribute and be part of something. And that's what makes it more engaging and that's what makes us potentially stay. I didn't answer that very quickly, did I?

Absolutely.

I think thank you for giving me that opportunity, Mikulas. I mean, we've talked already that we're both on LinkedIn. I think that's where we discovered each other. So if you're LinkedIn user, you'll find me on LinkedIn. But if that's more complicated than you want it to be, you're talking to Andy Hall. I founded Andy Hall coaching. So guess what? My website is andyhallcoaching.com. So you can find me there and find out a lot more about me there. if you wanted to reach out or make connection, then you can do that there. So that's probably the easiest way for people to reach out to me either on my website or via LinkedIn, McUlless. But thank you for allowing me the opportunity to share that.

Absolute pleasure, Makulas. Thank you very much for having me. I really, really appreciate the opportunity that you've given me today. Great conversation. Thank you.