Why this drone expert talks clients out of drones

Morning, Mickal, it's an absolute pleasure.

Yeah, it's an interesting story. It goes back quite a long way. When I left the army in 2007, I started a software company. I was relatively successful. I was approached by a young lady called Tina Brevitt who had set up a society for unmanned air systems. So it's essentially a networking society for drone pilots. She wanted some help because she was a photographer. It's a very male dominated industry, the drone industry, it certainly was at the time. And she needed somebody with a bit of credibility and because of my ex-military experience and my job as head of airworthiness for the Defense Statistics Organization, the fact that I was CAA certified as an airworthiness expert, she needed some help. So I helped her with software, I helped her with marketing. and she gave me part of the company and we took her from 124 members to just under 45,000. And eventually during that process, she introduced me to the British Standardization Institute, develops the standards here in the UK, so it's a national body. We were interested in doing a kite mark, so it's a sort of a standard for drone operators. They were very interested in it, but they were more interested in what's happening at the International Standardization Organization. So they asked me to represent the UK. on that. So I spent the next nine years representing the UK and leading the consortium writing the international standards for safety and quality for UAS both manufacturing and operation. And during that process, it sort of became obvious that this is a business I needed to focus in. So I brought all of my companies together. I bought the company offer and I brought my software company in and I brought my cybersecurity company in and I created a group of companies. Drone major does all the drone stuff. Innovation major looks at software and cyber, and now Phoenix major is a manufacturing for unmanned air systems.

I think the main thing is, certainly with drones, are a lot of misconceptions. In fact, in software too, they tend to not really know what they want. And that's the key problem that you have with any client is a misunderstanding or a misalignment of expectations. Many years ago, I had a company that wanted cameras for drones for construction to monitor and scan all of the building progress and They definitely wanted drones and they didn't really know why. And I asked them, you know, surely cameras would be better and cheaper. So I gave them three quotes, one for drones, one for intelligent cameras that could crawl up and down and move around and one just for fixed cameras. And guess which one they went for? They went for fixed cameras because they were a fraction of the cost and did a really good job. So it's not never always about drones. And I think that's a key lesson that I've learned is A drone is a tool, is part of an ecosystem of systems, it is technology essentially, so we consider ourselves to be technology advisors rather than just advisors on robotics and autonomous systems. So it's often getting through the understanding of what the client is actually trying to achieve. That's the hardest hurdle you've got. Once you understand that, then you can sort of steer them towards something that they will be very happy with rather than just trying to sell them a drone.

I think it's common. Yeah. That's very true. And it's the same with software. It's the same with absolutely everything. The client has an expectation. They are not an expert in the things that you are an expert in. And so they have their, their expectations are very often misaligned as to exactly what they want to achieve, what the process is that you go through. So essentially you just have to get face to face with the client and sit down and explain it. Please don't ask me for a drone. You know, explain the process, take them through step by step. And I think the breaking things down into little bite sized chunks. stops you going down a rabbit hole where you're spending months trying to develop something. And the client is just waiting, waiting, waiting. And then you get and you go, look, I've done it. Show you this is what you wanted. And the client then says, no, no, no, it's not. That's not what I was expecting at all. And that's the biggest problem. So you take them on a journey. You start with a scoping exercise. So you get trying to get inside their head, understand exactly what they're trying to achieve. And then you write that all down and you present that to them. And that's a very small piece of work. Get them to understand. what is it they're trying to achieve, how you think you're going to do it, and it's an outline sort of program. And then you take them through the next phase, which is the development of the system. And you take them through step by step by step by step so that when they get to the end, they're expecting to see what it is you have told them that you are going to deliver. Rather than, yes, no problem, I can develop you a system that does X, I will go and do that. I'll see you in six months time. I'll come back and show it to you. And you won't be happy.

Yes. Many. Yeah, well, interestingly, mean, obviously, COVID was really difficult. But it was also an opportunity. And I think I think if you can take a good philosophy of life is that everything happens for a reason, whether it's good or bad. There is something that's going to come out of that, that is good. And that's the sort of philosophy that I have is everything happens for a reason, the universe will unfold as it should. and eventually I will come out the other side. So there were two things. Firstly, don't worry too much. If you find yourself with lots of free time on your hands, which I did during COVID, I sat myself down and I worked out why the drone industry wasn't commercializing. I wrote plans, I developed a new company, and I then launched those once COVID was finished. And they're very successful, things like digital tethering, which we launched in 2022. with 23.2 to 20.25 with Network Rail. And we're still developing that as a global concept. That's now setting up as its own company in a fund. So that's very exciting. So I've had some really tough times. Money stops entirely for whatever reason. In the last few years, we've had the defense review here in the UK and the delay of what's called the defense investment plan. So there's been very, very little spending on the defense side. And in fact, that continues to today. It's still not repaired, still not back up and running. So there are always difficult times. The key is never give up. It only stops working when you give up. So you just have to buckle down. If you have to change your structure, then change your structure. Do whatever you can to survive. Keep going, keep going, keep going. And eventually it will sort itself out or you will sort it out and you come out the other side of it and you've learned something.

Yeah. that's a really good question. Probably really just rather than have you go through the stages of doing something, you know, don't avoid defense. So when I was at the start of my journey, my business partner and I sat down and we said, we don't want to go into defense. We definitely don't want to go into defense. Absolutely not. It's bad for your reputation potentially and people might think you're a warmonger or whatever it is. And so we said, right, no defense, no defense at all. And we avoided it for years. mean, probably about eight years, we didn't do any defense at all. And then of course the issue with Ukraine kicked off and then it became a duty bound really just to assist and develop systems. And that was the biggest. breakthrough that we had as a company. So I think my one piece of advice would be for my nine year younger, hopefully slightly more attractive me would be don't avoid defense. Get stuck in and start now and build your business so that it is acceptable to do business in defense. Otherwise you're to have to do that all later.

Yeah, of course. So we use the term robotics and autonomous systems rather than drones, because robotics autonomous systems means drones in all domains, land, sea and air. And a system is essentially, you, everyone thinks of the drone, everyone's really focused on the actual aircraft or the platform, be it a ground based system or a maritime based system. A system is actually, that's just one part of it. So you have the vehicle itself, you have the controllers, you have the communications. You have the launcher, have the infrastructure, you have the training, you have the people, and that in itself, all of those elements create the system. So this is why we use the term Unmanned Air System, and the aircraft is actually just called the Unmanned Aircraft. So they're not UAS. The vehicle itself is not a UAS. The vehicle is just the UA. It used to be called UAV, but we ditched that a long time ago. So yeah. System of Systems is, I created one for defense purposes, was storage vehicles, launch vehicles, communication systems, and all sorts of manner of bits and pieces that was there to support the aircraft. So a system is absolutely every part of the system that you need to operate that vehicle.

It's still human judgment that does the heavy lifting. The only thing that we use AI for, and it is a very helpful tool, we use it in our platform to assist people to develop their own profiles on the platform. I think it's very useful there. We use it and we have a risk and compliance engine. We use it not in the development of the risk, but in the scoring. If you want to score yourself against a particular standard. Let's say you're trying to go for ISO 9001 and you've answered all the questions and you've uploaded all your documents, our AI system will look at all the work you've done and give you a judgment as to how successful you might be when you go for your standard. It's really useful in those little tools, but if you start asking AI to do things that require a decision, then I think you're making a mistake. You know, I'm sure it can make decisions, but I think... you in this game, certainly with aviation and the sort of safety levels that we have, AI has no place in what we are doing. It's always the human decision and it's carefully thought through and trialed and tested. The only thing I think the AI would be useful at potentially is simulation. So if you're going to do some simulation testing on a system, then I'm sure AI would play a part in that. But other than that, I wouldn't employ it in my operational tasks.

Well, mean, AI is an interesting topic, isn't it? I've read a book recently, which is called Super Intelligence. And it argues that there is no such thing as AI, there is only algorithmic analysis or algorithmic calculations. Because AI, as soon as something becomes useful, it is no longer AI. the that the book uses is that the electronic chess game, before it was made, it was considered to be artificial intelligence. But as soon as it was made, it was just chess. So and the AI boundary then moves and you still can't achieve it. So it just keeps moving away from you until you can achieve consciousness, I guess, and then end of the human race and all of that kind of good stuff that people worry about. But yeah, so where do we? Yeah, so I think that's probably to answer your question. I've got a bit lost. I do apologize.

Yes, yes, my son. Right. So I, last year I got an opportunity to assist a Ukrainian company to build drones here in the UK to ship back to Ukraine, just to, just an assistance. And it made me think that actually one of the biggest problems that the industry has is an inability to scale. So we are building a unique model to assist companies that make drones, be they air, land, sea, whatever it is they need at scale. So it is predominantly an assembly task, but we actually do manage all of the manufacturing. It's not just here in the UK, we're doing it internationally. So I've set up a series of companies, one for each platform or each domain. we have Phoenix Major is the newest addition to the group that will assist drone, a manned air system companies to have their platforms built here in the UK. without losing any IP whatsoever. So we will conduct a full design for manufacture process. We will look at the compliance of that system in terms of does it meet NATO compliance? Does it meet European compliance or American compliance? Depends on where they want to sell it. And we'll take it through a full system. So at the end, the product that comes out is not only manufacturable at scale, it is also compliant with the various regulations so that it has a wider market appeal. And we do that for the price of the manufacturer plus a small margin. That is it. That's all we do. And we don't take any suggestions that we make to that manufacturer, such as if you change this, it would be more more manufacturable. So move from soft tooling to injection molding is a good example of how to massively increase volume without and reduce the costs. That's not that knowledge and that IP belongs to the OEM, not to us. All we ask for is a contract to manufacture here in the UK and we even assist with the sales of those platforms globally. We've had significant success in this model. So I now have a plan to build a series of companies. We've named them. There is Nautilus Major for subsea systems. Argo Major is surface maritime systems. Bolo Major is the ground based systems. Apollo Major is counter UAS. And the other one is Pegasus major, which is support systems. we're in talks with many companies. It's really become very, very attractive to OEMs because they're not losing any IP. We're even setting up here in the UK an FCA regulated fund where we can create JVs with our OEMs and start manufacturing through the JVs so that they can bring their intellectual property in the country without losing it, without any risk to their company. So it's an amazing model. I'm very, very excited. And that's what I'm going to focus on for the next few years is to get all of those companies up and running and have that manufacturing capability here in the UK and overseas. We're already working with sovereign nations overseas to develop some of the systems here in the UK. Non-critical components will be made in country. So again, we're protecting the IP of the manufacturers. So that's that.

Hahaha Yeah, yeah, it's interesting, isn't it? So I have a good team, right? So and you don't just start up eight companies, you start one, you create the model, and then you create the next one and you replicate the model and the lessons that you've learned in the first one to do in the second one. So we're really focused on Phoenix major right now. We've identified a facility in Wales. We've identified the team that we need. We're now recruiting, building that team to make sure that we can deliver for our clients. So we will build that one over the next 12 to 24 months. And then once that model is the key is document everything, right? Write it all down. If you didn't make a mistake, write it down so that you've got a model. So you really have needed a very clever, very talented team, which I have to be able to build that so that you can say, right, there is a big, thick book, which says, this is how the company should be structured. This is, this is all the things that you should do. These are all the things you shouldn't do. And you give that to somebody to say, go away and start the next one.

No, exactly. And it's often forgotten. And if you go through life making the same mistakes again and again and again, then you really should start looking at yourself in the mirror and think, maybe I should give this up and go and get a job.

No, no, once you get to this level, life isn't that long at all. It's I'm a older than I look. Yeah, it is tiring. It's exhausting. I happen to have sort of boundless energy at times and other times I'm very tired and I have to take myself off and have a rest. But I do have an amazing team. And I think that's the thing. One of the lessons I've learned in business is be very, very careful. Be very meticulous when picking your team. Okay, take nothing for granted. and don't assume that a good CV means a good candidate. You have to get to know the candidate, you have to get really inside who they are and understand what drives them before you employ them fully. I always find that at the start of any employment exercise, I don't immediately recruit, I ask them to go and do a piece of work for me to see how they behave. And I'm very happy to pay them to go and do that piece of work, but I want them to do a piece of work. want to see, you know, how they react, how they communicate and how, how, what, what sort of quality of things they produce. Are they, are they detailed orientated or are they just, are they good at, at, know, giving other people tasks? So delegating who are they? And I think that's really, really key. And I've, I've, I've made a lot of mistakes over the years. I've hired some horrific people that I've then had to get rid of. because they just simply weren't either aligned with the core business morals or they just simply thought that having a job and getting paid is all that matters and you don't have to deliver anything, you can just lie about it. So get a good team.

and keep going. Never give up. No matter how bad it gets. Never give up. Just keep going. You may have to you may find yourself, you know, without your shirt standing on your own again, after after a big, a big, big issue. Dust yourself off and crack on and just start again. Right. So it doesn't just don't stop. Don't don't ditch your brand. Don't close your company. Don't go into administration. Fight, fight, fight and keep going.

That's it, exactly right.

Best place to go is the website, is dromemajor.net. It's a fabulous website. had some really, we spent a lot of money on it. It's a fully managed procurement system, but it also has all the information about the company and how to contact us, whether it's a careers or just get in touch with a question. If you're a buyer, you can register and you can ask for technology. If you're a supplier, you can register and promote your business and get access to requests for information and requests for quotes. So it's a really good platform.

My pleasure. Thank you, Nicholas. Have a great day.